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CD Club FAQ - 10 Dec 1994 Version: 3.7 - Last Modified: 10 December 1994 This FAQ has three sections ( I , II, and III) and an Appendix A. If this post was cut short, please email me at bpvh@fullfeed.com + The CD Club FAQ can be found by gopher at biogopher.wustl.edu and by ftp at ftp.netcom.com in pub/ra/ramseyms/cd or at biogopher.wustl.edu. This FAQ, at the request of Carl Ponder, is under new management. When Carl desires to take back the caretaking duties, I will gladly yield to him. Let me introduce myself. My name is Brad von Haden and I can be reached via email at bpvh@fullfeed.com. I have been a member of a BMG club since the mid-80's (currently a member of both the popular and Classical divisions) and a member of Columbia House since 1993 after I heard about the KGN telephone offer here on this newsgroup. So, from here on out in the FAQ, when there is a personal pronoun, it means either Carl (almost always) or myself. If you have any information, new, corrections, or whatever, pertaining to the FAQ, please contact me. Sincerely, Brad von Haden ps - Special thanks to Malcolm Humes, James Fowell, Glenn Lea, Troy Biles, Bob Neldorf, Jerry Dallal, Victor Ortega, Benn Tannenbaum, Bob Retelle, Bruno Fernandes, and all the dedicated readers of "rec.music.cd" who have provided me with so much invaluable information. p.p.s. My thanks, especially to Carl Ponder for all his hardwork, and to all those mentioned by Carl, plus Scott Clark, H.W. Neff and Dave Datta, and Mark Ramsey, Martin Stern, Eric Stauffer, and Yi-Shin Wu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ + a '+' signifies a change from the previous version (which was 3.6). I. Join, Quit, Repeat 1. Deciding to Join To find out whether CH and/or BMG offer artists and titles that appeal to you in quantities sufficient to fulfill the membership requirements: check magazines and newspapers for club advertisements check a friends club bulletin/catalog call or write (see Section II) the club for a catalog: BMG - (317) 542-0414 CH - (800) 457-0500 2. Joining CH and BMG have several membership offers available. CH has offers ranging from their standard '8 CDs for 1 cent, buy 6 more CDs' to '10 CDs for the price of one-half of a CD'. BMG's deals go from '8 CDs for the price of 1 CD' to '10 CDs for the price of one-half of a CD'. Both CH and BMG reserve the right to cancel an offer without notice. 3. CH's Best Deal - KGN To join, pick six selections from any Columbia House advertisement, catalog or flyer. Call New Member Service (800-982-4242) and say you would like to join Columbia House CD Club under Department KGN. They will ask for: Your Name and Address Your Birthday Do you have a VCR? Do you have a Credit Card? (They don't ask for any Card #'s.) What are your selection Numbers? What is your main music interest? Dance/Pop Modern Rock R&B/Soul Hard Rock Soft Rock Heavy Metal Rap Easy Listening + Note: Some people have reported having trouble signing up via KGN - orders accepted over the telephone but then receiving letters that the offer is no longer valid. Other people in the same time frame are receiving there introductory shipments. I do not know why some are successful and others are not. 4. BMG's Best Deal - ? According to several posts on rec.music.cd, BMG's 10 CDs for the price of one cent is no longer being accepted. In the letter telling of the end of the deal, there is a card for an offer of 10 CDs for the price of one-half of a CD, so 10 for 1/2 seems to be the best deal out there at this time. While a Member Other than paying the bills and fulfilling the membership requirements within the stated time period, a club member's main responsibility is to return the monthly selection cards in a timely fashion. If you receive a CD that is either received in error (unwanted monthly selection or wrong CD shipped by the club) or flawed (CD or packaging) call or write the club's Customer Service Department and ask for a return label. If the CD's shipping package has yet to be opened, just write "Refused - Return to Sender" on the outside of the package and give to the US Postal Service. Quitting Once the membership requirements have been fulfilled, either write (be sure to include your account number) or call the club's Customer Service Dept, or just write PLEASE CANCEL MY MEMBERSHIP on a monthly selection card. Prior to the club cancelling your membership, you might receive another monthly selection card. Ignore it. Repeat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ II. Brief Membership Information 1. Customer Service Columbia House BMG ---------------------------- ----------------------------- Mail: Columbia House CD Club BMG Music Service 1400 North Fruitridge Avenue Customer Correspondence Terre Haute, IN 47811 PO Box 1958 Indianapolis, IN 46291-0010 + BMG Classical Music Service Customer Correspondence PO Box 91119 Indianapolis, IN 46291-0050 Phone: (800) 457-0500 (317) 542-0414 M-F : 5 AM - 8 PM M-F : 8 AM - 6 PM SAT : 6 AM - 2 PM (317) 542-6244 (FAX) All Times Eastern Cancel Selection of the Month. Order any CD. (This can be faster than sending in the card.) Check on the status of an order. Check on the availability of a CD or an Artist. Order a catalog Questions or Problems. Request that you be removed from Mailing Lists going to outside companies. (This reduces the amount of junk mail you would receive because you joined the CD Club.) Request to be placed on the Order-Only list. This option may not be allowed until after you order your first CD and it may depend on the operator who answers your call. If they tell you no, then try again later in a week or two. By using this Order-Only option, you do not have to do anything concerning the Selection of the Month. You will still get a Selection of the Month card, but it will have a note on it that you will have to return the card to receive the Selection of the Month. It will NOT automatically be sent to you. Cancel your membership 2. CD Prices CDs that fulfill the membership purchase requirements are priced over $12.98 for CH and over $14.98 for BMG. To get the final cost, add in shipping costs (see below) and your local sales tax. Shipping & Handling (Single CD Selections) CH BMG ---- ---- 1 CD 1.99 1.97 2 CDs 3.58 3.74 3 CDs 4.97 5.43 4 CDs 6.36 6.84 5 CDs 7.75 8.55 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ III. More Indepth Information Questions Answer Sections ========= ------ -------- Can I rejoin the club if I quit? yes. 1.[1] Are the CD club disks as good as the store ones? open. 5,6,7 Can I order from back issues of the catalogs? yes. 4 Can I use numbers from catalogs to order from ads? yes. 4 Should I use the half-price coupons? no. 1.[1] Which club is better? depends. 1.[2] Can I order Boxed sets through the introductory offer? BMG only. 1.[6] Why do the clubs charge Sales Tax? see below. 9 How do I stop getting these cards every month? see below. 10 What if they send me a CD that I don't want? return it. 10 What do I do with a defective disc? return it. 10 Do they have Beatles or Pink Floyd? not really. 4 Where did all this junk mail suddenly come from? surprise! 8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Getting the most CD's for your $$$ If you follow these rules you will pay, on average, $3 per CD . You will only beat this price in the "bad" cutout bin. The club catalogs' contain strictly domestic CDs (except for BMG Classical) made mostly by more popular groups like U2 etc., or CDs that they couldn't sell, like "Best of Slim Whitman": 1. The Golden Rule: Join, buy the requirement amount, then quit. Do *not* use their so-called "special member deals", like buy-one-at-half-price. Having just bought ten CDs for next to nothing, half price is *not* a good deal in comparison. Want more CD's? Quit and rejoin! The stated policy of both Columbia House and BMG is that they reserve the right to refuse any application. I have been a member of both clubs maybe 7 times. As the clubs usually offer new memberships to members who have quit or allow past members to rejoin on their own, the clubs' policy evidently is to allow former members in good standing to join, fulfill, quit (repeat) at will. After quitting a club, BMG or CH might ask you to re-join by mail and/or by phone. Be forewarned that the offers to return may not be the best offers then available from the clubs. + 2. For BMG, wait for a 'buy 1, get 2 free' offer to fulfill the membership agreement. This should happen within the first three months of being a member. 3. The best deals come out around Christmas time. BMG advertises offers of 10-for-1, 10-for-1/2, or even 10-for-a-penny, as opposed to their usual 8-for-1 offer. Columbia House offers 10-for-1 or 10-for-1/2. These offers will cost an average of $3 or so, for all the CD's, taxes, shipping and handling, and even the stamps. The "normal" Columbia House offer of 15-for-the-price-of-six will cost more like $5 or $6 per CD. If time is not a consideration, it might be better to wait for a special offer. The deals where a member signs up a friend are *not* as good as these. However, if time is more important than money, try the "buddy system" where a member signs up a friend, quits, and then rejoins as a friend of the friend. 4. The prices of the CD's are not all the same. For the introductory membership order, take the more expensive CDs as the "free" selections and pay for the cheaper CDs. 5. Apparently you can sign up your roommates, girlfriend, etc. even if you live at the same address. It's handy to split memberships if you already have *almost* everything you want. 6. Getting double-CD's and multiple-CD boxed sets is complicated. Columbia House only allows *some* double-cd's to be ordered in their introductory offers, and does not allow you to order them if you join through the offers listed in their catalogs. You *can* get the double-CD's in your follow-up orders. Sets with "N" CD's do not always count as "N" for fulfilling your obligation. As they are inconsistent with this, it would be best to call them for verification. Remember to get the name of the representative. BMG allows you to order double- and multiple- sets in the introductory, buy-1-get-1-free, 60% off, offers, etc. In the introductory offer, just put the number of the N-CD set in one of the entries, and leave (N-1) of the entries blank so it adds up to the correct number of total individual CDs (not titles). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sample Price Calculations Columbia House 10-for-1/2 ("Department KGN") offer: # of CD Shipping 6.25 % Sub- CDs Price & Handling IL Tax Total ==== ===== ========== ====== ===== 1-6 FREE 9.14 .57 9.71 7 8.49 1.99 .66 11.14 8 FREE 1.99 .12 2.11 9 FREE 1.99 .12 2.11 10 FREE 1.99 .12 2.11 ----- ----- ---- ----- 8.49 17.10 1.59 27.18 ===== ===== ==== ----- Stamps (6) 1.74 ----- 28.92 ===== Number of CDs = 10 Total Cost = $28.92 Cost per CD = $2.89 + BMG 8-for-1/2 offer, using a 'buy 1, get 2 free' offer to fulfill # of CD Shipping 6.25 % Sub- CDs Price & Handling IL Tax Total ==== ===== ========== ====== ===== 1-4 FREE 6.84 .43 7.27 5-7 7.99 5.43 .84 14.26 8 FREE 1.97 .12 2.09 9 FREE 1.97 .12 2.09 10 FREE 1.97 .12 2.09 ---- ----- ---- ----- 7.99 18.18 1.63 27.80 ==== ===== ==== ----- Stamps (10) 2.90 ----- 30.70 ===== Number of CDs = 10 Total Cost = $30.70 Cost per CD = $3.07 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Available Deals (unconfirmed) Deals vary throughout the year. Some are only available for a limited time, or through exotic sources. The ads can even vary between different printings of the same edition of the same magazine, like TV Guide or Rolling Stone. If you read the fine print, some will forgo shipping charges. Here are some of the ones that you will find reported: Columbia House: * 10-for-1/2. 8-for-1. (In my mailed copy of Stereo Review (Nov 94)) 8-for-1-cent, buy 6 more. (Standard offer in most magazines and newspapers). 4-for-1. (Showed up on Prodigy). 4-for-free, for buying a Sony CD player. ?-for-free, for signing on with AT&T. BMG: 10-for-one-half. (reportedly replacing 10-for-one-cent). 10-for-1. 9-for-1. 8-for-1. (Standard offer in most magazines and newspapers). * This offer is assumed valid until known otherwise, and it is the best offer known to be available. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inventory Listings Columbia House periodically sends out a "directory" which contains several thousand titles. This is *not* their entire inventory. A good rule of thumb is that they should stock all the CD's by the same group/artist under the same label. Call them at the Customer Service number listed above to order catalogs or get individual catalog numbers, even if not yet a member. Tell them you are about to join. + BMG recently decided to send out such a directory after a survey they took of their membership showed their members wanted a more complete catalog than the monthly flyer. I am not sure if this will become a regular (couple times a year) feature. A comprehensive directory, started by Bob Neidorff, and now maintained by Bob Morris, is periodically posted to "rec.music.cd", "rec.music.info", and "rec.audio". It can be found by ftp at ftp.netcom.com in pub/ra/ramseyms/cd. The current maintainer of the directory has postponed making any updates until 1995. The BMG directory can be searched while online. I tried a veronica search on the word 'bmg' and it found various pieces of information about the BMG CD Club (but not written by BMG), including a searchable directory. Other pointers to BMG CD Club information (but not necessarily the online catalog): gopher://biographer.wustl.edu/77/audio/bmg/bmgsrch.pl http://biogopher.wustl.edu:70/1/audio/bmg ftp: biogopher.wustl.edu in pub ftp: ftp.netcom.com in pub/ramseyms/cd note: as always, any information/clarification about the contents of this FAQ are welcome. Especially on net tools where I (Brad) am still a net novice. Brian Wilson asked Columbia House for permission to create an online directory of their inventory, and the answer was an empthatic *no*. Evidently, this would jeopardize their copyright unless they went through formal contracts etc., which, of course, they have no intention of doing. Catalog numbers are generally good indefinitely from both Columbia House and BMG. It pays to save old catalogs. CD's *do* drop out of inventory occasionally, although it is more common for them to list something and then have the contract fall through. If you do not have access to old catalogs when you join, you can still save up ads from newspapers and magazines until you find enough stuff that you like. Evidently you can use numbers directly from the catalog when joining BMG through posted ads. I always join Columbia House through their *telephone* offers so I just tell them the titles and let them find the numbers. There are some significant artists, like The Beatles and Pink Floyd, that just don't make themselves available to the CD clubs. Some of the weird stuff does, like The Wall Live in Berlin, or the Beatles with Tony Sheridan, the Star Club recordings, etc. I read that Geffen and some other labels no longer supply the CD clubs, due to pressure form Tower and other outlets that are mad about being undercut by clubs (I don't shop there anymore!). [While this maybe true of new albums out on the Geffen label, older material on Geffen is still available through both BMG and Columbia House.] Peter Gabriel's US was scheduled to come out in Columbia House but was pulled when I tried to order it. You can still get some of the old Peter Gabriel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Quality Debate There is an ongoing debate as to whether CDs purchased through the clubs are as high a quality as those purchased in stores. Both BMG and Columbia House (SONY/CBS) do sell CDs on the commercial market, so presumably many of their CDs will be of commercial-grade. Both BMG and Columbia House print much of their stuff under license. Here are two possible reasons why club CD *might* end up being worse: 1. To reduce prices, they may be pressing too many CDs from the same master, which could conceivably raise the error-rate past the error-correcting capability of the coding scheme. Records I bought from the old RCA club sounded pretty bad for a similar reason. 2. They may be "mastering down" the quality of the mix. They *do* sometimes "master down" their artwork, omitting liner notes, using a poor-quality image on the booklet, or shrinking foldout posters down to the size of the normal booklet. There is no hard evidence that either of these is the case. In a year or so we will be able to take binary dumps and do a "diff" to see if the digital stream is the same or not. In the meantime, there have been claims by people that they could actually *hear* a difference, which substantiate #1 or #2. Another person claimed that the track positions were actually *different*, which substantiates #2. + In the Fall of 1994, a company did such a test comparing CDs purchased at retail stores versus CDs purchased through the clubs. The conclusion was posted to the rec.audio family of newgroups. And the results: there were no differences in the binary dumps. The test was done on a very small sample of CD titles. There are several other "quality" issues. 1. Re-masters/re-releases. While these will show up in stores immediately, it may take sometime to show up in the clubs. The time lag allows the club to sell out its inventory of the old versions. 2. Older/lesser quality binary masters. It is possible that the clubs do not get the BEST version of the album, or are unwilling to buy the newer version. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CD Club "Re-Mastering" Statements H.W. Neff and Dave Datta received this information from BMG and Columbia House and was current in 1991. It is included in this FAQ with out permission from the clubs but with permission from Mr. Neff.. Messrs. Neff and Datta had permission from the clubs to include the information in their FAQ. Mr. Neff, after reading this FAQ supplied me with the following information: Several times the question has been raised about the remastering of material by cd clubs. A written query was made. Posted here, with permission, is the bulk of each response: BMG Music Club THE COMPACT DISC CLUB MANUFACTURES SELECTIONS UNDER RIGID SPECIFICATIONS AND WARRANTS THAT PRODUCTS ARE FREE FROM DEFECTS. SELECTIONS ARE REPRODUCED ACCORDING TO AGREEMENTS WITH THE ARTISTS. MOST SELECTIONS ARE THE SAME AS THAT SOLD IN STORES. IF THERE IS A CHANGE MADE IN THE MASTER COPY, THIS IS DONE ONLY BY AGREEMENT WITH THE ARTIST. CBS Music Club In reply to your question about the mastering of CD's, Columbia House takes the material as it comes to us from the licensor and we duplicate it in the manufacturing plants of Digital Audio Disc Corporation in Terre Haute or, in some cases, at the Warner Communications duplicating facilities in Pennsylvania. We do not ourselves re-master any product nor do we attempt -- or in fact are permitted - to make any changes in the master. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Resale Value BMG blocks out the bar code on most every CD they sell and instead prints the words "Manufactured for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc. under license", and they print the CD's selection number on the back, the booklet, and the CD itself. This is pretty conspicuous. I have found BMG disks in the used bins at pawnshops and have known that I could order them new from BMG at a lower price than they were asking. Some used-CD stores refuse to accept BMG disks. Ethical Issues Since I've received some criticism, I felt I should add this section. Following the "standard" algorithm of becoming a preferred member of the CD clubs, you will be buying CDs at an average price of $10-$17 with the disadvantages of limited choices, long turnaround time, and their occasional screwups. You would be better off ordering from Noteworthy Music (ph. 1-800-648-7972) which has 10x the inventory, prices in the $9-$12 range, a complete catalog, and a delivery time of a few days. I believe that the cost of manufacturing a high-volume music CD is about $2, *including* manufacturing and copyrights. CD's are expensive because people are willing to pay more money for the higher quality. This is the free market at work. Simply supply and demand. The "super" deals are posted as a way to attract new customers. Here's a quote from BMG's vice president, Oren Testa: "We make this offer simply because experience has shown that it is a sound, economical way to acquire new friends for the BMG Music Service. Many of our members continue with us for three, five, even ten years. We make a fair profit while you keep on saving." (Victor Ortega) I believe that the clubs still cover their costs under all these deals, with the *possible* exception of BMG's 10-for-one-cent, where they may *still* be making it all back with their inflated "shipping charges". On the other hand, if the clubs all go out of business, I'll be back buying my CD's for $10 from Noteworthy. In the meantime: 1. Pay your bills. 2. Don't invent fictitious subscribers. 3. *Always* read the fine print before you join, while you're in, and as you quit. 4. Track your costs. You will be able to buy more efficiently as you understand where to put the money. 5. Always return the monthly card. If you don't want the monthly selection, check the box that says this. The clubs also seem to make money by selling addresses to various junk mail lists. They call this a "benefit", giving you the opportunity to order all sorts of neat stuff. If you send them a note (including your membership number) asking to be taken off of the junkmail lists, they will do so. I think there is a way to do this more generally through the post office, I just don't remember how. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CD Clubs' Sales Tax Another question: why do BMG and Columbia House charge sales tax for out-of-state orders, and do you have to pay it? Here's the answers so far: If a company has a business presence in a state then they have to collect that state's sales tax, even for purchases made from a unit located outside that state. (Jerry Dallal) When you buy something in a state that has a sales tax, you're supposed to pay the state... no matter who or where you buy it from. In Michigan, there's a form in the annual Income Tax booklet that you're supposed to fill in, telling them all the stuff you bought from vendors in other states and enclosing the proper 4% tax on all of it... (yeah, right). Big mail order places like BMG collect the sales tax at the rate for wherever you live and send it to the state treasury department to save you the trouble of having to send it in voluntarily. (BobR) I did some checking a few years back about this-- it seem charging tax on GOODS received is a definite must, however, charging tax on SERVICES (i.e. shipping and handling) is a bit vague. I usually refuse to pay that portion of the sales tax (it's not that hard to figure out) and have never receive any grief from BMG or Columbia. It just seems like one more way these companies want to separate us from our money. (Benn Tannenbaum) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Monthly Selection You will generally *not* want the selection-of-the-month. Sometimes it is offered at a slight discount, but make sure that it fills your obligation. I just keep filling in "send nothing at this time" until I'm ready to "cash in the cards", where I order everything I want all at once. This reduces your shipping and handling fees with Columbia House. I also keep track of how many stamps I've used so I can account accurately. You may get a monthly selection that you didn't want -- you may have been on vacation when the card was sent to you, or it got lost in the mail. DO NOT OPEN IT. Mark it "return to sender" and send it back. If you *have* opened it, contact the club and ask for a return shipping label. (Do the same thing if you received a defective disc -- they *will* replace it for you, at no charge). If you return too many discs, they will kick you out of the club. If you *don't* want to worry about the monthly selection, tell them that you want to change to a plan where they don't automatically assume that you want it. I believe that this was called a "positive option" or something like that. Before granting this, the clubs usually required the member to have already fulfilled his/her membership obligation. If you follow the "join-quit-repeat" algorithm, you will not be in the club long enough to excercise this option. You will fulfill your membership obligation, get your free CD's, and quit the club as you make your last payment, so the "positive option" period will only last a couple months. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Appendix A. Columbia House in Canada (Bruno Fernandes) Columbia in the USA will not cater to Canadian residents. Columbia House operates at least in Ontario and Quebec with some small differences. In Ontario it is illegal to give free discs to a sponsoring friend: Section 37(2) of the Consumer Protection Act prohibits the giving of incentives. Very recently though Columbia has created a little work-around by giving the joining member an extra free disc. Now the deal for a person joining under sponsorship is: 8 for 1 penny. Then you can take another two at a discount and they WILL count toward the agreement. Then the person need only buy 5 more at regular price - most CD's are $18.98 regular (range from 15.98). So... 8 for $ 0.01 1 for $ 6.95 1 for $ 4.96 ------------ $11.92 CD-Total $ 1.85 Special Shipping & Handling ------------ $13.77 Sub-Total $ 0.95 8% Provincial Sales Tax (on CD-Total) (% per province) $ 0.96 7% Goods & Services Tax (on Sub-Total) (same for all prov) ------------ $15.68 Total ============ Now for the 5 regular... $94.90 5 Discs * 18.98 each (can buy some as low as $15.98) $ 1.99 Shipping for 1st Disc $ 1.79 Shipping for 2nd Disc $ 3.57 Shipping for next 3 (3 * 1.19) ------------ $102.25 Sub-Total $ 7.59 8% PST (on 5 Disc price of $94.90) $ 7.16 7% GST (on Sub-Total) ------------ $117.00 Total ============ Initial 10 = $ 15.68 Regular 5 = $117.00 -------- Total = $132.68 / 15 Discs = $8.85 per Disc. ======== Most MALL record stores in the Toronto area sell CD's for $17-$22. In Downtown Toronto, the BIG stores from the same chains will sell for $13-$20 with an average of $15 or $16. Used shops will sell for $7-$11 but most common is $9-$10. This is all before TAX. The buyer must add an additional 15% to all this (PST+GST). Note that there will sometimes be clearance prices or a special deal. HMV offers Buy Ten get one Free (the ten must be at least $15.99 and the FREE one can be up to $25). The Columbia figure above is even better than buying used from the US at $6 per disc USED. The exchange today was scary - it cost $1.39 CDN to buy $1 US. I've bought some discs this week from someone in the US for $4.50 each plus shipping. All in all it came to $7 CDN per disc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the CD CLUB FAQ bpvh@fullfeed.com